Posts by Disillusioned JW

8

Levels of dependency both inside and outside of the JWs

by joe134cd in

just been looking at posts over on reddit, with people bragging of attending the memorial under the influence.

ok fair enough i guess.

but it got me thinking.

Disillusioned JW

"Is a pot-smoking JW really a JW ... "? Provided the person still considers herself/himself/itself a JW and is considered by the congregation to be a JW, then the answer is yes, in the same sense that a JW elder who sexually abuses his child is still a JW elder - until the religion designates him as no longer a JW elder.

Likewise a JW who habitually fornicates (unknown to the congregation) and who habitually smokes tobacco (unknown to the congregation) and who steals (unknown to the congregation) and secretly has some doctrinal beliefs which the WT considers apostate, but who thinks of herself/himself/itself as a JW, is active in field service, and attends JW meetings, is still a JW - until the religion designates the person as no longer a JW.

Yes in these examples the person is breaking major rules of the WT/JW religion, but by the definition of the religion (and also in the mind the person claiming to be a JW) the person is still a JW.

If someone answers "No" to the question of "Is a pot-smoking JW really a JW ...?", then that person is committing what is called the "No true Scotsman" fallacy. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman for more information.

20

James Beverley's book on Penton's expulsion now on Abebooks

by MrMonroe in

"crisis of allegiance" is a slim, but excellent book written by a professor of religion on the events in lethbridge, alberta, around 1981, that led to the expulsion of jim penton, a jw who believed he was anointed but also happened to think the wts had some doctrines wrong.. it's a great read that ties in quite closely with the campaign to get rid of ray franz, showing the dirty tricks used by the society to rid themselves of someone who dared to question them.

penton was an academic who the society loved when he wrote a book on their human rights legal challenges ... but when he expanded his research and decided to do a book on their history, pow!

they began regarding him with great suspicion.

Disillusioned JW

I didn't start reading books which JWs label as apostate until after I began seriously doubting the JW religion as a result of me noticing problems in the WT's own publications and in their policies.

I very recently checked out from the library M. James Penton's book called APOCALYPSE DELAYED: The Story of Jehovah's Witnesses (copyright 1985). Yesterday I noticed that on page 106 it says the following. "Jehovah's Witnesses in the Divine Purpose and Alexander H. Macmillan's Faith on the March presented false history, in particular with respect to the Watch Tower schism of 1917." I own both the JW books and while I noticed that Macmillan's book makes false claims (in addition to half truths) [which thus caused me want to get rid of it by selling it for a profit] and that Jehovah's Witnesses in the Divine Purpose also makes some half truths (or made some misleading statements and left out major faults of the WT), I didn't think that the latter book made outright false claims. I am thus shocked that Penton says the WT book "presented false history, in particular with respect to the Watch Tower schism of 1917". I will have to research that claim of Penton.

59

Ok...so then here is my 'proper' intro ;)

by Rubyvixen in

i actually have been reading these forums for about two years now and just decided to finally register.

where does one go to make a proper intro post?

edit: alrighty then, i guess i will do my little intro here.

Disillusioned JW

Hello Bernadette and hello joao. Welcome to the forum.

30

Jw's sending me invites and letters, I don't get it.

by Foolednomore in

jw
friends

first off, i have made it real clear with jw's my thoughts on being a jw.

i'm out, there is no coming back.. second, i'm on their " do not call list" .. so why now all of a sudden my mailbox is getting bombed 💣 by their memorial invites and letters?.

don't they follow their do not call list?

Disillusioned JW

The enclosed WT published invitation to the Memorial includes a request for people to go to jw.org to watch a video to "See a preview of the wonderful future that the death of Jesus makes possible." I wonder how much time is allotted in the video's depiction of a wonderful future and I wonder how emotionally stirring that depiction is. Maybe I will watch that video the next time I go to the public library. Though the depiction will be of fiction (to me), it still might be entertaining to me.

5

Memorial Weirdness

by Ding in

those of us with a watchtower background probably see the memorial as normal.. at least, we're used to it.. we can forget how weird it seems to an outsider.. it's like inviting a group out to dinner, having meals placed on the table, and then explaining to them why no one present should be partaking of any of it because it's really intended for someone else..

Disillusioned JW

In contrast many years ago when I visited a nearby Reform Judaism synagogue on a Sabbath day (merely to see what it was like), during the service the Rabbi urged me (a non-Jewish stranger to him), to partake of the bread of wine. Since I was already an atheistic Secular Humanist by then, I refused to do so (because I didn't want to give the impression of participating in worship).

At another time when I was already an atheistic Secular Humanist, I was attending a service of a nearby congregation of Humanistic Judaism. During part of the service the bread and small paper (or plastic) cups of wine (which had secular humanistic meanings in the service) were passed around to everyone present (including to young children), including to me, and I partook of them. Each person received their own bread and their own small cup of wine (unless they didn't want the wine; I think there was an option for water instead of wine).

During the service emblems were passed around at multiple times, each serving received had a somewhat different meaning (I think each pertained to a different blessing and a season of the year or each month of the year, but I don't recall for certain). But I didn't like drinking the wine because I could feel the alcohol effecting me adversely (I could feel it starting to intoxicate me) from the multiple small (possibly one ounce) servings of wine, thus at some point I stopped accepting more servings of wine (which was permissible to do).

By the way, years ago I stopped fully identifying as a Humanist (since I don't agree with all of the precepts of Humanism), though I still identify as an atheist. I now prefer to identify as a scientific/philosophical (or even metaphysical) naturalist instead of as a Humanist.

7

Memorial Invite Letter

by RULES & REGULATIONS in

have you received your 2022 memorial invite?

here is one sent to my friend from his witness neighbor!

what are the odds that after receiving this invite, someone will attend the memorial?.

Disillusioned JW

I also get the impression they are frantically trying to bring people back into the religion and to bring new people into it.

7

Memorial Invite Letter

by RULES & REGULATIONS in

have you received your 2022 memorial invite?

here is one sent to my friend from his witness neighbor!

what are the odds that after receiving this invite, someone will attend the memorial?.

Disillusioned JW

I received it earlier today, but the one I received looks different than yours.

30

Jw's sending me invites and letters, I don't get it.

by Foolednomore in

jw
friends

first off, i have made it real clear with jw's my thoughts on being a jw.

i'm out, there is no coming back.. second, i'm on their " do not call list" .. so why now all of a sudden my mailbox is getting bombed 💣 by their memorial invites and letters?.

don't they follow their do not call list?

Disillusioned JW

Today I received in the postal mail an envelope addressed to "Neighbor" with the return address of the local kingdom hall. I suspect it includes an invitation to the Memorial (which takes place tomorrow). I am surprised I received it since I thought the congregations now know not to send such to me. Apparently there is no way to keep all JWs from sending evangelizing mail to my address. I am thinking of writing facts on the back of envelope (as suggested by truth_b_known in post that was made 14 days ago) and returning it to the sender. If I do so maybe an elder will read what I write on the back.

Update: I later opened the envelope and read the enclosed memorial invitation (which is nicely worded, printed from a computer in a cursive style, and signed by hand) which the sender included with a JW.org published invitation to the memorial. I thus won't write "Retun to Sender" on the envelope.

63

Is Bible prophecy now starting to come true regarding the prelude to the great tribulation?

by Disillusioned JW in

is bible prophecy now starting to come true regarding a prelude to the great tribulation?.

full disclosure: i still don't believe in the bible's claims about the existence of the supernatural, even of jehovah god (i'm an atheist and a scientific/philosophical naturalist), but i am asking this question because recent events are starting to seem (to me) to fit well the description of some prophecies in the bible.

consider the following.. several hours ago (on 11-26-2021) as i was about to enter a local fred meyer store of my city (in suburb or small city in the metro area of a large city) a person i know told me that a moment earlier a person left the store in a hurry with a cart load up with unpaid merchandise (i think i was told it was groceries but i don't remember that for sure).

Disillusioned JW

Yes the Bible is fiction (mostly), especially regarding claims of the existence of the supernature), but to me it is still interesting to analyze.

63

Is Bible prophecy now starting to come true regarding the prelude to the great tribulation?

by Disillusioned JW in

is bible prophecy now starting to come true regarding a prelude to the great tribulation?.

full disclosure: i still don't believe in the bible's claims about the existence of the supernatural, even of jehovah god (i'm an atheist and a scientific/philosophical naturalist), but i am asking this question because recent events are starting to seem (to me) to fit well the description of some prophecies in the bible.

consider the following.. several hours ago (on 11-26-2021) as i was about to enter a local fred meyer store of my city (in suburb or small city in the metro area of a large city) a person i know told me that a moment earlier a person left the store in a hurry with a cart load up with unpaid merchandise (i think i was told it was groceries but i don't remember that for sure).

Disillusioned JW

The video depicts Jesus and the 144,000 as being visible while coming in (or upon) the clouds, with the JW's and some of Gog's forces looking up at them. Does that mean that the WT now teaches that Jesus and his forces will be visible when coming in judgment, as the Gospel of Matthew describes regarding the sign of the Son of Man? Or, does the image simply represent seeing them in the sense of with figurative "eyes of understanding.", as the WT has taught for decades?

Perhaps the image only shows the JWs and some of Gog's forces seeing a brilliant light through the clouds (at nighttime) and also having an idea of what that means, while also indicating that visually obscured (to human eyes) by the clouds are Christ and the 144,000.